In his latest Noyes on the Streets video, Jon Noyes talks to an atheist and a Christian about whether atheism can account for meaning, love, justice, and human value. Our moral instincts make better sense within the Christian worldview because we ground our values in God’s character and in our identity as his image bearers.
Transcript
Jon: I guess my question is deeper. I like to talk about worldview issues. Like, why are these things wrong? Why do you think they’re wrong? Why is it wrong to cheat your neighbor? It sounds like common sense on its core, but I think that a lot of people—I’ve already experienced this. I’ve been here for 40 minutes having conversations. A lot of people can’t verbalize why they think that’s wrong. Like, why do you think it’s wrong to hate your neighbor, to do these things, to cheat friends? Like, what’s going on there?
Protestor 1: Well, it’s morality. I mean, it’s about morality. You either have it or you don’t. And, you know, we all struggle with it. I’m not going to walk around and say I’m the most moral guy, because I’m not.
Jon: We all mess up. Right?
Protestor 1: But certainly this administration—or I call it the regime, not the administration—they have shown no morality, and they flaunt it. It’s not even that they’re immoral. They like that they’re immoral.
Jon: Where do we get that idea of morality? Where do we get a moral standard from?
Protestor 1: Well, I get it from the way I was raised.
Jon: So, if—I’m just throwing this out there—Donald Trump, right? If he was raised differently, does that justify his behavior?
Protestor 1: No.
Jon: So, there has to be something above where we’re raised because we’re all raised differently. I was raised extremely liberal. Now I’m super conservative. Right? Then you guys come from an extremely conservative town, it sounds like, and now you’re out here holding, like, amazing signs, protesting. So, where do we get that sense of morality? It has to be more than where we’re raised, don’t you think?
Jon (commentary): So, this clip is a classical example of what happens when you press moral claims just one layer deeper. I asked a really basic question: Why is it wrong to cheat on your neighbor or hate your friend? The answer was, “That’s how I was raised,” is what I get. And that sounds like, kind of, common sense, but if you think about it, it doesn’t hold up. Why? Well, because people are raised very differently.
What if one person was raised to believe the opposite is true, then to cheat and exploit others is totally fine? You see, morality can’t just be a reflection of your upbringing. There has to be something higher, something objective, something true that’s true regardless of where or how you were raised. And that’s when I bring up the idea that our moral intuitions in us might point to a law that’s outside of us altogether.
This is a great moment to use the Columbo tactic once again. Just keep asking clarifying questions. Where does morality come from? Why do you believe that it’s wrong to do certain things? What makes something right or wrong in the first place? You don’t need to give them all the answers right away, either. Keep that in mind. You just need to expose the limits of their worldview and help them see that their moral instincts make more sense if we really are made in God’s image. When someone appeals to how they were raised, help them see real morality doesn’t come from your parents. It comes from your Creator.
Jon: So, I think—I’m just going to throw my cards on the table.
Protestor 1: I’m a Christian.
Protestor 2: I’m an atheist.
Jon: So, your moral compass—your gut—would be the intuition from the Holy Spirit. Right? That God has written his law in our heart.
Protestor 1: For me, it is. It is.
Protestor 2: And for me, it’s everybody knows when you’re doing something right and something good.
Jon: I agree. So, when you say you’re an atheist, what do you mean? What do you mean by atheist?
Protestor 2: I have absolutely no religion whatsoever.
Jon: So, no belief in God? God does not exist?
Protestor 2: There is nothing there. I am spiritual in a way that I would say we are created from the stars. We are created from the earth. I mean, we are all—
Jon: But if we’re created, that entails a Creator.
Protestor 2: No.
Jon: Because out of nothing, nothing comes.
Protestor 2: I mean, I say the big bang theory. It’s a scientific thing. It’s more scientific to me. It’s the stars. It’s atoms. You are created by atoms, and when you die, those atoms dissipate.
Jon: They go into something else. Carl Sagan. Do you know the name Carl Sagan? So, he said that we’re all made of star stuff. Right? We’re all built in the interiors of stars, and I think it’s poetic, but when we think about it—can I press into you just a minute? Is that okay? If you’re an atheist, and we’re just star stuff, like, who cares? Like, if you’re just star stuff and we’re just a random quantification of molecules bumping into each other—
Protestor 1: You still have a life. You still have existence.
Jon: But we have that foundation. We have that foundation because we’re Christians. So, we have a grounding. I think atheists don’t have a grounding for their moral value, because we’re just star stuff, and what’s the value of star stuff? I mean, who cares?
Jon (commentary): Here in this clip, the conversation shifts from morality to meaning. And one of the people that I’m talking to, they say that they’re an atheist, but they’re also spiritual. So, on one hand, they’re made of star stuff and atoms and energy—that’s all that there is—but then there’s an acknowledgment of something higher. And with the star stuff idea, I love the poetic beauty of that language. It, I think, comes from Carl Sagan’s “star stuff.” And it’s powerful imagery. That’s why it’s so popular. But in this conversation, I had to ask the question, if that’s all that we are—if we’re just matter, if we’re just molecules and biology—then who cares? Then why are they even there in that protest setting? It seems like they have something to say of value and meaning.
And I’m not trying to be snarky here, and I don’t think it’s a snarky question to be asking this. It’s a worldview question. If we’re really just the result of time and chance and physics, then meaning, value, and morality, they’re just illusions. And why would we love or sacrifice, and why do we care about justice or anything else that these people are obviously caring about enough to go out and protest for? Because there’s no objective reason to do any of those things if we’re just the sum of our chemical reactions.
I don’t think it’s necessarily enough to just spot flaws in someone’s logic. Instead, I think it’s better to spot the flaws but then point them out when they’re living inconsistently with their own worldview, which is what’s happening here. If atheism were true, then none of this would really matter. My conversation with these people, the protests that they’re at, the signs that they’re carrying—none of it matters. But the fact that we do care about justice, the fact that we do care about meaning and love—it shows that, deep down, we know that we’re made for more. That’s not a bug in the system. It’s not a glitch. It’s a clue to the truth. If we’re just atoms, nothing matters. But if we’re made in the image of God, everything matters.
Jon: But that’s one of the beautiful things about song. Right? There’s an art.
Protestor 1: You make your own interpretation.
Jon: Well, but there’s also a reason why you put those words on that sign, because it’s not just because of your interpretation, because you want people to look at that and feel your interpretation. Right? So, like, when you write a song, there’s actual meaning behind it. Right? So, I can’t listen to your music and be like, “Oh, this is what I think you mean.” No. Well, there’s real meaning. But I think on atheism and things like this, I think that stuff starts to break down. Right? I don’t think there is objective meaning on atheism or purpose or anything like this. I think, like, we should love our neighbor. But on atheism, I don’t think there’s room for that. I think it’s, who cares? It’s a dog-eat-dog world. I used to be an atheist.
Protestor 2: I don’t think so. No. Atheists love everyone. You can be who you are. An atheist loves everyone and loves the earth. It’s more that we are more earthbound than anything. I said I am a person who believes in nature.
Jon: I think the question is why, though. Like, why? If we’re just molecules in motion, we’re just moist robots, why love? Why not just live your best life now, and you can get the best that you can? But I think if we ask that why question in Christianity, we can ground that because, in Christianity, we have a law above the law. We were all made in the image of God. You’re made in the image of God. I’m made in the image of God.
Jon (commentary): I want you to notice in this video, I ask the question that goes straight to the heart of the human condition. Why should we love anyone? My new friend here, she says that she loves the earth. And I think that that’s a beautiful thing. She says that she teaches her kids to love the earth. That’s a beautiful thing. Right? But again I ask, well, why? If we’re just biological matter assembled by blind forces, why should love or care or self-sacrifice matter at all to any of us?
Remember, Richard Dawkins, one of the most well-known atheists in the world, said that the universe without God is a universe that there’s no good, no evil, just pitiless indifference, is what he says. But no one actually lives like that. Have you noticed that? This woman here, she says that atheists love everyone. But why? And I could even believe that that’s true. Maybe many atheists, they do love people. I think that’s certainly true. But that love doesn’t flow from their atheism. It’s not grounded in that worldview. It’s actually borrowed from a different worldview. It’s actually borrowed from my worldview—the Christian worldview. Because as Christians, we believe that love matters because people matter, and people matter because they’re made in the image of God. You can’t get away from that. That’s what gives life value. That’s why we care. Not because we’re stardust, but because we’re image bearers.
So, again, my goal in this conversation, in this moment, it’s not to win a debate. It’s never to win a debate. It’s to gently show that the things we all care about only make sense in light of God. You see, we love because God first loved us. And that’s a better foundation than stardust will ever give you.